17th Mar. 2012

5th on the 5th 
The Inquisition pursued prosecuted and exterminated those who claimed knowledge without given process, visible apparatus, or outside what was proven and generally understood.  Unverifiable claims to knowledge of the universe or events beyond the ken of common folk was deemed apostate, heterodoxy.  Any variation from established beliefs: dreams, mystical experiences, or even the use of herbs outside accepted medical knowledge, subjected practitioners to unspeakable tortures prior to conviction as heretics and death by strangulation/burning.  Holding aloft the Christian Bible, 'witch-finders' would quote the damning verse from Exodus 22. 18:  "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."  With that, the fire of salvation was lit.
Conversely, Hindus of the same era were tolerant and supportive of all things inspiring man to spiritual perfection (very fortunate for gaudiya dreamers).  In full knowledge of their own liberality, Indians are careful in maintaining family traditions and methods of worship.  It is why Hinduism is not evangelical, and why new fangled cults do no meet with expected spiritual or financial success calculated when targeting Hindus.
So even though the Iskcon Gaudiya Mutt (IGM) declared their Srimad Bhagavatam a scripture WRITTEN BY GOD (in his literary incarnation),  Hindus were not impressed. Prabhupada: "Nobody will come here after passing M.A., Ph.D. The most fallen we have to select."  Hmmm, wonder why?  The heavy emphasis on God as a sexual deviant, claims of giant eagles flying from planet to planet laying giant eggs, pigeons that carry folk into outer space.  Hairy-scary-fairy-tales that outdo even the most drug induced writings known to man, all of it protected by the flimsiest psychological shield - "GOD WROTE IT".  In an eleventh century world, that claim was never questioned.  Nor were the horsefeathers plucked when it was exported and embraced by hallucinating hippies in America.  Apparently (as pointed out by Iskcon's founder above) no academics or intellectuals have taken time out to examine the absurd, nay, barking mad assertions made by gaudiya god-men and pushed by the IGM.  Surely the time has come.
Here is a gaudiya style introduction to the post below:-  Last night my guru appeared in a dream.  He said- "Look upon that ocean of dreams.  Do you see a bunch of words afloat?  It is an expose on the SB 5th canto.  Take and post it on BIF.  Hopefully it will crack a few nuts".  So here it is- 5th on the 5th.  
Srimad-Bhagavatam, 5.17.13:
Here is a description of the lower heavenly planets. The inhabitants of those planets enjoy life in a pleasing atmosphere of clear lakes filled with newly grown lotus flowers and gardens filled with fruits, flowers, various kinds of birds and humming bees. In that atmosphere they enjoy life with their very beautiful wives, who are always sexually stimulated. Nonetheless, they are all devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead

Srimad-Bhagavatam, 5.17.4.

We should always remember that the Ganges River comes from the Causal Ocean, beyond the covering of the universe. After the water of the Causal Ocean leaks through the hole created by Lord Vamanadeva, it flows down to Dhruvaloka (the polestar) and then to the seven planets beneath Dhruvaloka. Then it is carried to the moon by innumerable celestial airplanes, and then it falls to the top of Mount Meru, which is known as Sumeru-parvata. In this way, the water of the Ganges finally reaches the lower planets and the peaks of the Himalayas

Srimad-Bhagavatam, 5.21.17.

There are sixty thousand saintly persons named Valikhilyas, each the size of a thumb, who are located in front of the sun-god and who offer him eloquent prayers of glorification

The Hare Krishna's have some fancy knowledge about the Universe. Let's take a snapshot look at their universe. Here is our summary:

Our universe is 4 billion miles in diameter. It is surrounded by a layer of dirt ten times the thickness of the universe itself. In the vertical center of our universe is one light, which lights up everything. The bottom half of our universe is filled with water. There is no such thing as gravity. All the planets float on air, like balloons, blown around hither and thither by various winds. This explains their erratic movements in the sky. The Moon is larger than the Sun and the lunar eclipse is caused by Rahu, a floating, decapitated demon head, swallowing the Moon. Surrounding the dirt layer of this universe are layers of water, fire, and other materials, some with no English equivalences, each 10 times thicker than the previous layer. The whole thing floats in a gigantic river along with countless other universal eggs.

No, this is not a fairy tale. This is something all the Hare Krishna's believe in, or pretend to believe in. They are even building a planetarium to display their beliefs.


Anyway, given the benefit of the doubt, most Hare Krishnas truly believe in their universe, as it is described in their shastra, delivered by their infallible guru, A. C. (Always Correct?) Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, a Gaudiya dreamer.

But how and why is it that Europeans and Westerners, with European and Western educations, have taken to the above? Allow us to digress for a moment from the Universe According to Gaudiya, to the "hows" and "whys" of cult conversion, Gaudiya style, because cult conversion and the fantasy universe are connected.

Here is the "how" of the Gaudiya cult conversion process.

First dazzle them with apparently seamless, personal, theistic philosophy, defeating all comers by quoting from self-penned scriptures as authority. Reference your facts in a circle, like an internal corruption investigation. Then bewilder them with unverifiable "facts" and stories that you have dreamed up (like the magical egg universe), manufactured in the fertile factory of your brain, in order to spice up an otherwise dry, mechanical philosophy AND, more importantly, to influence behavior.

If you are convincing and follow a honed procedure, the convert will see you as the provider of great and transcendental knowledge, and if you push the necessity of accepting a God-man, a pure devotee (snuff snorting) as-good-as God intermediary, to guide you to transcendence every step of the way, then you can initiate a disciple, one who, by definition, takes your every word as canon.

At this point, it all sounds hokey and innocent, following a pretty seamless religious philosophy spruced up with a little Salvatore Dali. It sounds harmless, and it would be, if this is where it all stopped, but it goes further.

Pushing things "a little bit further" is the "why" of the Gaudiya conversion process.

Once you have the candidate in your grasp, completely compliant, surrendered, no independent thought, accepting everything you say as law, push things "a little bit further" ...drop a bomb.

"whenever there is some quarrel between husband wife, the husband beats and she is tamed"

And, if you have done your job right, they will believe it, do it, and preach it.

Here are a few more bombs, dropped on the philosophy of peace, love, liberation, and doublespeak:

"after the first menstruation, the husband is ready."

"Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape" (purport SB 4.25.41)  (How would a pure devotee know?)

"take one wife. Be satisfied. Lick up one"

"whenever there is some quarrel between husband wife, the husband beats and she is tamed." ...  "The woman is beautiful when she remains as a slave to the husband."   "Even if there is some wrong on the part of the husband, the wife must tolerate it"

"That is best, to keep them (the blacks) under control as slaves  Certainly we are not going to say these things about the negro people publicly) So, you can understand that these talks are not for the public, as they have not got the ability to understand."

Tamala Krsna: "Gradually some of the people are beginning to understand what you're up to, Srila Prabhupada. Some of these big demons in America especially, they are beginning to understand that you are the most dangerous personality in the world to them."

Prabhupada: "To kill demon-crazy, LSD. (laughs) Yes, that is my mission. That is Krsna's mission, paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam, BG 4.8 , to kill all these demons, crazy demons. I have no such power; otherwise I would have killed them. Either establish Krsna conscious government or kill them - bas, finish. I would have done that, violence. But if one is able to kill, then one should by force cut out the blasphemer's tongue and kill the offender."

The idea behind the "far out" stories is, of course, to soften up people for the bombs, like the ones above. If you can strip people of their critical thinking, so much so that they will accept cartoonish ideas, then you can push them into criminal activity, as you speak for God, infallibly. They have bought the absurd and you can push them that one step further into buying even more absurdity: that criminal behavior is sanctioned by God.

To enhance matters, there is the psychology of student management, which the Gaudiya "teachers" have honed to perfection. 1000 "NO"s are not as loud as one "yes." 1000 "all women are your mother" statements are not as loud as one "the husband beats and she is tamed" statement. Everyone will be saying, "Prabhupada said it's ok to beat your wife" and nobody will be saying, "But it's not ok to hit your mother." It's just the psychology of student management. All teachers and parents know it and use it to prevent bad behavior, but the Gaudiyas use it to promote bad behavior.

Now imagine 50 or 200 gurus playing this psychological "push me, pull you" game. That is today's ISKCON.

And that's it, in a "nut" shell. It's a tricky type of deceit, as hard to understand and as convoluted as the credit default swap. It has twisted many lives, and turned people into criminals, even without their intention.

The scribes made one mistake, however. When they interpolated the fantastic stuff, they got into a pissing contest, Dueling Dreamers, to see who could dream up the "farthest out" dream and sucker the audience to the greatest extent; but, in their testosterone dream wars, they overlooked the principle, "Do not dream about things that can be verified," like the math of the Moon and the Sun.

They never dreamt about the Hubble telescope, the computer chip, the Voyager 1, Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, or TV. Their "dreams" didn't reach that far and now their dreams have turned into nightmares. They may build their planetarium thinking, "The best defense is a good offense," but a statement such as, "The Moon is bigger than the Sun", makes their defense ludicrous.

With their trick exposed, their corruption is also exposed.

The thinking man will conclude, "If they didn't get it right for the closest planet (Gaudiya's call the Moon a "planet"), then how did they get it right for the farthest planet?" And Prabhupada's equivocal response to the Moon landing is even less reassuring:

Prabhupada: "It is a fact that they did not go to the moon ....They might have gone.  Most probably they have not gone."

That said, let's take a look at the Gaudiya dream universe through the eyes of science and open up that crack in the universal egg that the Gaudiya's made when they ran at the mouth. Maybe some eyes will open too, having been sealed shut with the salve of Gaudiya glue.

Let's check their math and see if it adds up.

First, we'll display ISKCON's maps of the Universe, and then we'll analyze some quotes, all taken from the 5th canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. (Note: The maps were originally printed in the front of the 1975 edition of the 5th canto, part 2. Prabhupada saw these maps and approved them for publication. The devotees have since removed the maps and no longer print them.)

Now let's compare the Gaudiya Universe to the scientific Universe.

: There is only one sun in the Universe, our Sun.

Science: There are billions of suns in the Universe.

Scripture: The Moon is farther from the Earth than the Sun. The distances between the planets are constant (and mostly equidistant):

Science: The Moon is closer to the Earth than the Sun. The distances between the planets vary.

Distance (in miles) from Earth


5th canto

Science(average distance)






















Note: Because the planets orbit the Sun, their distances from one other vary, as they orbit in ellipses.

: The lunar eclipse is a demon that attacks the Moon.

Science: The lunar eclipse is our own (Earth's) shadow.

Fact: Earth is not the only planet that experiences lunar eclipses:  All four giant planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune) can experience eclipses, since they all have substantial moons and the Sun appears small from them. Eclipses are most common on Jupiter, because its moons orbit in the same plane with the Sun. There are many nice spacecraft photos that show dark shadows of the moons on Jupiter's disk (below).

Fact: There are 145 moons in our solar system!!


Scripture: The Moon is twice as big as the Sun.

Science: The Moon is 1/400 as big as the Sun.  http://www.universetoday.com/17109/the-sun-and-the-moon/.

Fact: The Sun measures 1.4 million km across, while the Moon is a mere 3,474 km across. In other words, the Sun is roughly 400 times larger than the Moon. But the Sun also happens to be 400 times further away than the Moon, and this has created an amazing coincidence.

From our perspective, the Sun and the Moon look almost exactly the same size. This is why we can have solar eclipses, where the Moon passes in front of the Sun, just barely obscuring it from our view.? (http://www.universetoday.com/17109/the-sun-and-the-moon/)

Scripture: The diameter of the Universe = 4,000,000,000 miles:

Science: The diameter of the Universe = 800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles.

(14 billion light years across and growing). http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/how-big-universe.html).

Fact: One light year is 5.88 trillion miles.

Fact: The orbit of Neptune is always over 5 billion miles. The whole 5th canto universe will fit comfortably within the orbit of Neptune!!!

Note: Some say the Universe is expanding and that reconciles everything. However, the scientific Universe is at least 14 billion "light years" across, while the 5th Canto universe is less than 1 "light day" across. If the Srimad-Bhagavatam were written 5,000 years ago, for the scriptural Universe to catch up to the scientific Universe, that is, 1 light day in size catching up to 14 billion light years in size, in 5000 years time, the scriptural Universe would have to be expanding 2.8 million times the speed of light, and the layer coverings much faster!

The Missing Planets

Uranus, (http://www.universetoday.com)
And the huge rock Pluto (now no longer considered a planet),

Scripture: The Ganges flows through a hole in the Universe to the North Star where if branches into 7 tributaries that go to 7 planets. From there, it is carried by celestial airplanes to Earth.

Science: The Ganges is recycled ocean.

Scripture: There's grass on the Moon (and you don't need a lighter!)

Science: Well... it would make for a soft landing but don't turn off the heat shield.

Scripture: There's no such thing as gravity, the planets float on air.

5th Canto:

Science: There's no air in space. (http://www.blurtit.com/q566110.html). That's why astronauts wear helmets.


The problem is interpolation. When one figures out that the books have been interpolated, that men with selfish agendas have edited the books, one loses faith in the books. Since these "books are the basis" of everything in ISKCON, the whole structure collapses when the books collapse. All you see is guru and sadhu performing legerdemain with your wallet and your life. When the books are gone, everything is gone, finished.

The End.

Of course, there's Salva's cloak of invisibility:

Richard L Thompson - "We suggest that cosmic distances may appear different to observers endowed with different levels of consciousness." (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy)

But, a mile is a mile is a mile, and there is no grass on the Moon. You can't backtrack, you can't wiggle out, and you can't take the 5th on the 5th canto. It's too late. You said it. We distributed it. That settles it.

Thank you for spending time with us.